Testimony of Patricia Nell Warren -- publisher, Wildcat Press March 21, 1996 25 MS. BEESON: Good afternoon, your Honors. I am Ann 185 1 Beeson and I'm another of the attorneys for the ACLU 2 plaintiffs in this case. And we now call as our next witness 3 Patricia Nell Warren. 4 We have been informed by the Government that they do 5 not wish to cross-examine Ms. Warren, and so we therefore 6 offer into evidence the affidavit which she signed on the 7 15th of March and which was filed in this case on the 19th. 8 JUDGE SLOVITER: Is there any objection by the 9 Government? 10 MS. RUSSOTTO: No, your Honor, this is basically the 11 same situation as with Mr. Kuromiya. We're prepared to 12 accept the declaration being entered into evidence, but 13 subject to our ability to submit deposition testimony. 14 JUDGE SLOVITER: And is there any objection to that 15 by the plaintiffs? 16 MR. COPPOLINO: No objection. 17 JUDGE SLOVITER: Okay, fine. 18 MS. BEESON: We now make her available for the Court 19 to question, if they wish. 20 COURTROOM DEPUTY: Good afternoon, ma'am. Would you 21 please state and spell your name for the record? 22 THE WITNESS: Patricia, P-A-T-R-I-C-I-A, Nell, N-E- 23 L-L, Warren, W-A-R-R-E-N. 24 PATRICIA NELL WARREN, Affirmed. 25 DIRECT EXAMINATION 186 1 JUDGE DALZELL: Ms. Warren, one thing I'm not clear 2 about with respect to Wildcat Press, you are -- you have an 3 interest in Wildcat Press, as I understand in your 4 declaration? 5 THE WITNESS: A little bit of history, I am an 6 author that has published a number of books over the years 7 and I recently made a decision to go independent and to 8 publish my own books instead of relying on trade publishers. 9 So Wildcat Press is my own company co-owned with a business 10 partner. I publish my own books, new books, old books, 11 getting them back in print. We will also publish books by 12 other people. It is what is referred to in the trade as a 13 small press. 14 JUDGE DALZELL: Okay. Now, Wildcat Press as you say 15 in your declaration has a Web site, right? 16 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 17 JUDGE DALZELL: Now, your books, let's just talk 18 about your books. What do you have on that site, excerpts? 19 I wasn't clear. Or chapters or summaries or what about your 20 books? 21 THE WITNESS: We do two things with the Web site. 22 One, it's a place where people can come, they can learn more 23 about the company, my books, what they're about. They can 24 also buy books directly off of the Web site through a credit 25 card ordering apparatus. So there are two excerpts, the 187 1 first chapters from two of my best-known books that are 2 available for people to access and read and possibly interest 3 them in buying the books. 4 JUDGE DALZELL: Okay, and how long are those 5 excerpts? 6 THE WITNESS: They are -- consist of the entire 7 first chapters of the books, so they are like one long 8 subpage. 9 JUDGE DALZELL: So I guess as the copyright owner at 10 least of those books you could make a decision, could you 11 not, to put your whole book on line? 12 THE WITNESS: I could. 13 JUDGE DALZELL: Would you ever do that? 14 THE WITNESS: If I thought it was a good idea, I 15 definitely could do that. 16 JUDGE DALZELL: All right. But at this point you're 17 using the on line service to sell books, correct? 18 THE WITNESS: Correct. 19 JUDGE DALZELL: You mention in your declaration that 20 the credit card company, as I understand it, charges a dollar 21 service fee -- 22 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 23 JUDGE DALZELL: -- for processing. Is that for the 24 verification, as a fee for that, or what is that dollar? 25 THE WITNESS: That is the fee for the -- that we are 188 1 charged for each user who wants to log into that particular 2 feature and use their credit card. It's a secure ordering 3 device. I believe there are several on the market. This one 4 is called First Virtual, which they can use a MasterCard or 5 Visa credit card. And we pay a fee for them to use that each 6 time it occurs. 7 JUDGE DALZELL: Were you here this morning? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 JUDGE DALZELL: You may have heard a lot of colloquy 10 about verifying credit cards. At your Web site, can you 11 verify on line or do you have to go off line to verify? 12 THE WITNESS: I'm not a technical person, and I'm 13 not actually the technical person that runs this whole thing, 14 so I can't tell you exactly how it works, but it is handled 15 by the server that we operate off of, which is Southern 16 California Gay Wired, and they're the ones that process it. 17 That's mostly what I can tell you. 18 JUDGE DALZELL: Okay. So this server, Gay Wired, 19 handles all of that for your company? 20 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 21 JUDGE DALZELL: Another line of questions I have for 22 you that I'm very curious about, you say at paragraph 17 of 23 your declaration that you've helped create an on line 24 magazine, an E-zine as you call it called Youth Arts; is that 25 correct? 189 1 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 2 JUDGE DALZELL: And you said that you've also 3 created print magazines, a print magazine called Campus 4 Courier; is that correct? 5 THE WITNESS: I assisted in creating that. 6 Actually it never came to fruition, but that was many years 7 ago. 8 JUDGE DALZELL: Well, let me ask you this. This is 9 what I'm most curious about. Is it easier to start an E-zine 10 than a print magazine? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 JUDGE DALZELL: Why is that? 13 THE WITNESS: Because the material costs of putting 14 out a print magazine, standard print media, you're looking at 15 all of the costs of photography, and art and paper costs and 16 printing costs and so forth. It generally is much more 17 expensive than the cost of putting up a publication on line. 18 JUDGE DALZELL: And where is the E-zine posted? How 19 do you access it? 20 THE WITNESS: Through a URL. 21 JUDGE DALZELL: Okay. Thank you. 22 JUDGE SLOVITER: Judge Buckwalter. 23 JUDGE BUCKWALTER: I'm still looking through -- 24 JUDGE SLOVITER: Okay. Is it accurate that your 25 material would be considered gay and lesbian literature, the 190 1 material that you authored? I gathered that from the 2 declaration, is that correct? 3 THE WITNESS: Are you asking about my personal 4 writing? 5 JUDGE SLOVITER: Your personal books, yes. 6 THE WITNESS: Not all of my books, but most of what 7 I'm known for would be called gay literature. 8 JUDGE SLOVITER: And would that include also books 9 like Truman Capote's Other Voices, Other Rooms and some other 10 books by Truman Capote? 11 THE WITNESS: Well, let me -- I'd like to make sure 12 I understand your question you're asking. 13 JUDGE SLOVITER: Would that be considered gay and 14 lesbian literature? 15 THE WITNESS: I haven't read that particular book, 16 but it has been mentioned in that connection, as far as I 17 remember. 18 JUDGE SLOVITER: And is it your understanding that 19 literature in that genre might be viewed as subject to the 20 two provisions of the statute that are at issue in this case? 21 THE WITNESS: I'm concerned about people in this 22 country who view the entire subject of writing about gay and 23 lesbian life as patently offensive. Their opinions and 24 feelings go way beyond the questions of the seven dirty words 25 of the FCC, and I am concerned that there could conceivably 191 1 be complaints made on the basis that the entire subject 2 matter is patently offensive. 3 JUDGE SLOVITER: And at the moment to your knowledge 4 is such literature available to young people in public 5 libraries, people under 18? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. 7 JUDGE SLOVITER: Thank you. 8 JUDGE BUCKWALTER: And you're concerned about 9 patently offensive, even with the extra language that's added 10 in this statute there? I mean it just doesn't say patently 11 offensive, it says patently offensive, sexual or excretory 12 activities or organs. Is that still a concern to you? 13 THE WITNESS: My concern is with how some individual 14 or group of individuals might choose to interpret that in the 15 course of bringing charges against me with the Justice 16 Department. 17 JUDGE BUCKWALTER: Okay. I don't think I have any 18 other questions. 19 JUDGE SLOVITER: Have our questions elicited any 20 questions from counsel? 21 MS. RUSSOTTO: No, your Honor. 22 MR. HANSEN: No, your Honor. 23 JUDGE DALZELL: Thank you for coming up. 24 JUDGE SLOVITER: Thank you. 25 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 192 1 (Witness excused.)